Fedora Linux Support Community & Resources Center
  #1  
Old 28th May 2012, 03:12 PM
Deminox Offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 70
windows_7chrome
Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

So I was in the Crapple store (I really REALLY hate that place) trying to find a stable OS that has support for everything I need for a business. I want an OS that feels like Gnome3, but will run Peachtree, Quickbooks, Photoshop (Wine support is meh right now), pretty much the entire CS3 suite, and other stuff. Sadly as much as I love my Fedora, I cant use it for everything I need.

So I looked at the features of Win8, and looked at the new Mac OS Lion, and they both kind of look like Gnome-Clones. Win8 with its "Jump drive booting" and HUD style overlay, and Mac OS looked like a bad Windows98 clone with Dashboard which looks like the Gnome3 app overlay (but not as well done).

I was wondering, who cloned who? Did Mac steal from Gnome (wouldnt be surprised) or did Gnome get inspired by Mac?

Eventually I decided I don't want to pay $1500 for a dual core with 4 gigs of ram and a 500MB graphics card. Thats a $400 at BEST. And Mac taking MONTHS to find a fix for a Virus? No thanks. Windows systems may get more of them, but at least they are usually gone before anyone even gets them. (The dickish snobby attitude of the store clerks aside. They may as well be wearing fake glasses, sandals and drinking Starbucks while talking down to you.. at least in my area. My friend says in her state the employees are super cheerful and helpful. *sigh*)

Geesh I type too much. Well, who can give me the scoop on who actually copied who? I tried to google "Mac Dashboard Release date" and instead I got a ton of links to the mac website...
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 28th May 2012, 03:17 PM
sea Offline
"Shells" (of a sub world)
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Confoederatio Helvetica (Swissh)
Age: 34
Posts: 3,291
linuxchrome
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

IMHO,AFAIK:
GUI look: iOS -> Gnome3
Multiple Virtual Desktops: Linux -> Win8
__________________
Laptop: Toshiba satellite p50-a-11 CPU: Intel i7 8*2400 MHz GPU: GeForce GT 745M RAM: 8192 MB Distro: Fedora (Rawhide) DE: Awesome
Text User Interface (TUI) // Windows 8+ & Fedora 20+ Dualboot
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 9th June 2012, 02:30 PM
joncr Online
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: NC
Posts: 1,151
linuxfirefox
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

The basic appearance of OS X hasn't changed much since its launch years ago. The Dashboard has been in there for a long time. I see nothing in Gnome 3 that resembles the Dashboard.

Gnome 3's Overview looks much like a similar feaure in OS X. The difference is that Gnome 3 makes their display an unavoidable core function, while it's completely optional in OS X. I never use it in OS X and I've forgotten the key combination that activates it. IMHO, a huge display of oversized icons is pointless, in any OS.

In other words, Gnome is obviously following Apple, not the other way around. You can visit Gnome's dev wikis and see screenshots from OS X and Apple apps posted as examples.

BTW, just how many PC operating systems were you expecting to find on sale at an Apple store?

Your choices of operating systems that run the apps you list are Windows and OS X. I think you knew that, too.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 9th June 2012, 03:21 PM
smr54 Offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 5,488
linuxchrome
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

Regardless of my feelings about Apple (and my wife loves all her Apple things), I have to say that here, in NYC, in all of the stores I've gone to, the Apple employees were knowledgeable enough about what she wanted, and very helpful, with no trace of condescension. On occasion, I've gotten into friendly discussions with them about O/S merits and lock downs, but they've always been nice, even when one says at the outset that this is going to be a very small sale. (For example, a cheap case.)

This includes the always very crowded, open 24/7 flagship store on 5th Avenue. They (Apple) will often (not sure if they still do) send you a survey after the purchase, so that would, of course, give employees an incentive to make a good impression.

As for your question, my VERY vague impression is that Apple did it first--and I also vaguely remember thinking Ubuntu, which was the first popular desktop distro to not have root but only sudo by default, had copied Apple which was the first to do that---IF, and it's a big if, my memory is correct, anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 9th June 2012, 04:06 PM
BBQdave Offline
The Ubu-Grillmaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: North Carolina
Age: 46
Posts: 1,934
linuxfirefox
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sea View Post
GUI look: iOS -> Gnome3
Multiple Virtual Desktops: Linux -> Win8
+1

my perception: iShiny inspired many FOSS devs, and Windows is playing catch up in a bad-sluggish way.

In fairness to Microsoft, their user base is used to a consistant UI experience (XP). They are shifting their users to WIndows 7, which can be a challenge providing familiarity and new UI experiences. WIndows 8 I think will be a bad gamble on their part, and may herald the end of all this iShiny crap. Yeah, I know, anything with a partially eaten fruit on it sells like hot-cakes. I just can not see Apple sustaining that.

Of course, I use a dumb-phone, and only recently replaced my decade old notebook... so maybe I am out of the loop to what is shiny, cool, and chewable
__________________
On quest for blue smoke and red rings...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 9th June 2012, 04:08 PM
Deminox Offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 70
windows_7chrome
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joncr View Post
The basic appearance of OS X hasn't changed much since its launch years ago. The Dashboard has been in there for a long time. I see nothing in Gnome 3 that resembles the Dashboard.

Gnome 3's Overview looks much like a similar feaure in OS X. The difference is that Gnome 3 makes their display an unavoidable core function, while it's completely optional in OS X. I never use it in OS X and I've forgotten the key combination that activates it. IMHO, a huge display of oversized icons is pointless, in any OS.

In other words, Gnome is obviously following Apple, not the other way around. You can visit Gnome's dev wikis and see screenshots from OS X and Apple apps posted as examples.

BTW, just how many PC operating systems were you expecting to find on sale at an Apple store?

Your choices of operating systems that run the apps you list are Windows and OS X. I think you knew that, too.
oh no no no, i knew i would only find a mac os there. What i was doing was comparison feature shopping. I knew Mac OS felt more like gnome (or maybe the other way around?) so I was there to see if it really felt as nice and smooth (it didnt, in my opinion. It felt more like Windows or LinuxMint). Some of the programs I was looking for are not windows only, they have software for mac as well. Photoshop, peachtree accounting, and such. And mac has a virtual windows that seems a tiny bit more compatible with stuff than WINE (you can run a Windows based WoW client on a dual-mac. Wine has trouble with WoW sometimes.). OR software comparable to the windows stuff (mac has their own version of 3DSMAX, they have a funny name for it).

I just became curious as to who had copied from who. (yes i know the full back story of mac/windows. Steve Jobs stole the GUI from Xerox, Bill Gates bought it from Steve Job's partner, Steve jobs goes into nerd-rage and sues everyone in the world for the next 20 years then dies of Karma. ... Too soon?)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 9th June 2012, 04:57 PM
joncr Online
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: NC
Posts: 1,151
macossafari
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

Here's what the first version of OS X looked like in 2001: OS X 10.0.

Here's Gnome 1 in 1999: Gnome 1.

I see similarities due more to both following design patterns current at the time than one copying the other. I used both and don't remember thinking the 2001 OS X was a copy of Gnome 1999.

I switch back and forth between OS X on a Macbook Pro and F17 w/KDE on a rather nice homebrew hardware. If I had to part with one, I'd give up the Fedora machine. It isn't about shiny-ness or eye candy. OS X on the Macbook is smoother and more consistent than any hardware-OS combination I've ever used, do in large measure to the integration of the trackpad. I also think -- some will disagree -- that the independent vendors in the OS X arena generate a more lively, varied, and innovative collection of apps than their counterparts in the Linux arena. A number of Gnome apps mimic rather obviously something marketed to OS X users.

If you insist on it, the best way to run Windows on a Mac is with Bootstrap. Much better than using any virtual environment. (Curious to see what Apple does about Secure Boot and Win8.)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 9th June 2012, 05:56 PM
RupertPupkin Offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,620
linuxfedorafirefox
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joncr View Post
Here's Gnome 1 in 1999: Gnome 1
That looks a lot like the Windows 95 interface: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...screenshot.png

It's no accident, because GNOME started out as a "freer" KDE, which itself started out by mimicking the Windows 95 interface. At that time the Win95 GUI was different from not only the older Windows 3.x GUI but also from window managers like Fvwm, which had been the standard window manager in Linux. So GNOME has never really been innovative. Whether it's Win95 or (as sea pointed out) iOS, GNOME has always copied others.

This thread just made me think of how uninnovative Linux (and, for that matter, FreeBSD, which just re-uses Linux' GUIs) has been in the GUI field. GNOME 1.x-2.x and KDE just mimicked the Windows 95 GUI (which somehow became regarded as "the traditional desktop interface," the one that all the GNOME 2.x fans miss in GNOME 3). I think pretty much every Linux GUI mimics something that came from someone before: Win95 -> GNOME 1.x-2.x, KDE, Fvwm95, IceWM; iOS -> GNOME 3, Unity; CDE -> XFCE; Ultrix uwm -> twm -> fvwm, Enlightenment, Blackbox, Openbox, Fluxbox; Xerox Star -> all tiling window managers like xmonad, awesome, dwm; NeXTSTEP -> AfterStep, Window Maker. Even features like virtual desktops came from Xerox Parc in the 80s. It looks like almost all the innovations in GUI design come from companies with proprietary systems.

Before the iOS tablet interface, the last truly new GUI I can think of was BeOS, which was proprietary. I'd like to see a totally new type of GUI that originated in Linux (and I don't think Compiz qualifies; it just took the usual Linux GUIs and animated them). But it appears that doing so requires a lot of money and research, which is why corporations have been better able to do that.
__________________
OS: Fedora 20 x86_64 | Machine: HP Pavilion a6130n | CPU: AMD 64 X2 Dual-Core 5000+ 2.6GHz | RAM: 5GB PC5300 DDR2 | Disk: 400GB SATA | Video: ATI Radeon HD 4350 512MB | Sound: Realtek ALC888S | Ethernet: Realtek RTL8201N
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 9th June 2012, 06:08 PM
Dan Online
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Paris, TX
Posts: 23,250
linuxfirefox
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

Reality check:

A brick ... is a brick.
A wall ... is a wall.
A computer is a tool.

Sure, you can make your bricks different coloured, and different shaped, and you can arrange them differently in your walls, but the bottom line is still the same. Walls are made of bricks, and the walls keep the roof off your brand new carved buzz-cut.

As long as the basic functioning of the computer/operating system remains/operates the same, We will have some derivative of buttons, links, menus, icons and desktops.

The rest is all preference based cosmetics.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 9th June 2012, 06:20 PM
RupertPupkin Offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,620
linuxfedorafirefox
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
As long as the basic functioning of the computer/operating system remains/operates the same, We will have some derivative of buttons, links, menus, icons and desktops.
There are window managers (e.g. stumpwm) that don't use icons, and some (e.g. lwm) don't even use menus.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 9th June 2012, 06:30 PM
joncr Online
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: NC
Posts: 1,151
macossafari
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RupertPupkin View Post
That looks a lot like the Windows 95 interface: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...screenshot.png

It's no accident, because GNOME started out as a "freer" KDE, which itself started out by mimicking the Windows 95 interface. At that time the Win95 GUI was different from not only the older Windows 3.x GUI but also from window managers like Fvwm, which had been the standard window manager in Linux....

This thread just made me think of how uninnovative Linux (and, for that matter, FreeBSD, which just re-uses Linux' GUIs) has been in the GUI field.

(
Win95, in its original incarnation, was the last Windows I used to any extent. I was playing around with Slackware, and probably Red Hat, back then and remember what a pleasant contrast Win95 was to the Linux GUI's, which were rather primitive and ugly.

Then, this morning, I was editing something in Kate and thought, Geez, this looks just like Windows.

I agree about the lack of innovation we've seen in Linux interfaces. As you say, a big part of that is because it costs money to design and build something that's really new and really good. Design is one of those things that requires talent in addition to learned skills. You can teach yourself how to code, or go to college and learn there. Interface design has roots in the technical world and in the the arts world. You need to leverage several skill sets. If you are really good, chances are you won't give it away free to Linux. Chances are you'll be polishing your portfolio to send to Cupertino.

We've seen Linux mimic Windows and Apple in other areas, too, such as the Office clones. Beyond cost, I suspect it's due to a desire to make Linux popular. At first glance, what better way to attract people than to make Linux look and feel like their old home?

I wish, though, that Linux would strike out on its own and forget about Windows and just concentrate on delivering something better. You know, I really don't care any more how Microsoft behaves or what Windows is like. I've never used Linux as a way to avoid Microsoft. I began using Linux because Unix was the first OS I used. I came to Linux via Minix and something called Coherent, looking for an Unix-y OS that ran on a 386. So, just give me quality stuff. (I'm not quite ready to say Gnome 3 deserves that label, but it's getting better with each point release and I give them a lot of credit for having the courage to go in a new direction. That's something worth copying.)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 9th June 2012, 06:40 PM
Gareth Jones Offline
Official Gnome 3 Sales Rep. (and Adminstrator)
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Leamington Spa, UK
Age: 31
Posts: 2,750
linuxfirefox
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RupertPupkin View Post
So GNOME has never really been innovative. Whether it's Win95 or (as sea pointed out) iOS, GNOME has always copied others.
A bit harsh I fear! GNOME 1 was indeed a response to KDE's dependence on the Qt tool-kit, which was in those days not free/open-source as it is now. Once Qt became FOSS, GNOME 2 sought to distinguish itself by building a clean, self-consistent and self-documenting GUI, whilst KDE was aiming more for complete reconfigurability in the GUI, and others for being light on resource-usage. Obviously Mac OS has traditionally been seen as the archetype for self-consistency etc. (somewhat unfairly, as old greats like RiscOS get forgotten), and inevitably MacOS was and is a large influence on GNOME design.

By GNOME 3, touch-screens and tablets have GUI design issues of their own, and the traditional hierarchical menu system is a pain to control quickly with a keyboard, so a new design was made for GNOME Shell. Again it borrowed a lot from Mac OS (and I suppose iOS and Android), but as pointed out, Mac OS hasn't really changed all that much for the past ten years, and like it or not, GNOME has innovated a lot of their own to deal with the modern requirements.

Unity, at least in its earlier versions, was a much more obvious copy of OS X than GNOME 3, with its top-of-the-screen menu bars and dock.

Quote:
This thread just made me think of how uninnovative Linux (and, for that matter, FreeBSD, which just re-uses Linux' GUIs) has been in the GUI field.
Personally I think FOSS has been far more innovative than it gets credit for. No closed-source desktop can match the customizability or choice of any of the major Linux desktops (even GNOME!, but especially KDE). While we all stick fundamentally to the old WIMP paradigm (which makes sense really until we develop true 3-D projection displays), it's pretty difficult to be obviously original and unique for any length of time! Even Windows Metro and smart-phone OSes owe an awful lot to WIMP, even though they hide window-management from the user and make pointers dynamic (i.e. finger touches).

Quote:
I think pretty much every Linux GUI mimics something that came from someone before
Make that every GUI, unqualified by platform.

Windows 95 itself borrowed the panel from CDE (albeit much simplified), which Microsoft was then involved with having not yet dumped Unix for NT (hence CDE's colourful yet Windows 3-esque décor). Windows 1 and its competitors were influenced (and held in check) by Apple. Mac OS X evolved from NextSTEP, which Apple acquired in the 90s. Even Mac OS 1–9 borrowed from non-Apple predecessors. The core WIMP concept was more or less complete by the mid-80s, before graphical OSes became well-known on home or office computers, and everything since then has been largely incremental.

Quote:
Before the iOS tablet interface, the last truly new GUI I can think of was BeOS, which was proprietary. I'd like to see a totally new type of GUI that originated in Linux (and I don't think Compiz qualifies; it just took the usual Linux GUIs and animated them). But it appears that doing so requires a lot of money and research, which is why corporations have been better able to do that.
BeOS was nice, but even that was based ultimately on the same old WIMP paradigm. I really don't think that that will change until we have fundamentally new display technologies. It works well enough, people are used to it, and can be refined for pretty much any 2-D display system without having to completely change the way application UIs are programmed.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10th June 2012, 06:52 PM
RupertPupkin Offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,620
linuxfedorafirefox
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Jones View Post
GNOME 2 sought to distinguish itself by building a clean, self-consistent and self-documenting GUI
Wow, you really do sound like a GNOME sales rep! Do you get a commission for every post here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Jones View Post
Personally I think FOSS has been far more innovative than it gets credit for. No closed-source desktop can match the customizability or choice of any of the major Linux desktops
That's true, and I suppose you could make an argument that that amount of power through customizability and choice is innovative in itself, since the proprietary desktops put more limits on users. But to me that seems like more of an overall philosophical innovation instead of a strictly GUI innovation (though a further argument could be made that it's more important than GUI innovations). From a strict GUI sense -- as in the design of the GUI -- I don't think that there have been very many innovations in Linux. I'd have to think about whether that's really all that important. As joncr mentioned, giving people something that looks familiar can be a way of making it easier for people to switch. I'm not sure, though, if it's the best way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Jones View Post
Mac OS X evolved from NextSTEP
I think NeXTSTEP was innovative, even though it wasn't a radical change in design. Some "incremental" changes (as you call them) can be innovative if it at least has a new idea. And I think NeXTSTEP did. It's a shame that Apple bought them out (and that GNUstep hasn't received as much attention from developers as other GUI toolkits).
__________________
OS: Fedora 20 x86_64 | Machine: HP Pavilion a6130n | CPU: AMD 64 X2 Dual-Core 5000+ 2.6GHz | RAM: 5GB PC5300 DDR2 | Disk: 400GB SATA | Video: ATI Radeon HD 4350 512MB | Sound: Realtek ALC888S | Ethernet: Realtek RTL8201N
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10th June 2012, 07:04 PM
RHamel Offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 560
linuxfirefox
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Reality check:

A brick ... is a brick.
A wall ... is a wall.
A computer user is a tool.

.
fixed it for you.

---------- Post added at 12:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------

Speaking of which, I just finised loading up Redhat 6.1 (Cartman) on an old computer I had lying around. I noted it was using Gnome.

Why did I do this? I had the computer, and I had the disks. I blame Rupert.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10th June 2012, 07:26 PM
Gareth Jones Offline
Official Gnome 3 Sales Rep. (and Adminstrator)
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Leamington Spa, UK
Age: 31
Posts: 2,750
linuxfirefox
Re: Chicken or the Egg (Mac OS or Gnome)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RupertPupkin View Post
Wow, you really do sound like a GNOME sales rep! Do you get a commission for every post here?
Well you know, if they offered! ...

While I personally prefer GNOME (both 2 and 3) to the other desktops, even Mac OS, I was trying to give credit where credit is due, to KDE etc. KDE feels too cluttered for my taste, but it is an excellent example of incremental desktop innovation under-the-hood. Many of its original ideas may be based on various versions of Windows, but it always takes its ideas much further, rather than just tacking them on. KDE 4 may look very Windows 7-ish in its default configuration, but by generalizing the idea of desktop widgets originally borrowed from OS X and Vista, Plasma's flexibility is pretty awesome and well beyond its predecessors.

Quote:
That's true, and I suppose you could make an argument that that amount of power through customizability and choice is innovative in itself, since the proprietary desktops put more limits on users. [...] From a strict GUI sense -- as in the design of the GUI -- I don't think that there have been very many innovations in Linux. I'd have to think about whether that's really all that important. As joncr mentioned, giving people something that looks familiar can be a way of making it easier for people to switch.
Well, I've already mentioned Plasma's generalization of desktop widgets. GNOME <3 and KDE <4 both generalized the traditional Unix desktop panel to good effect. GNOME 3's Shell could be said to merge and generalize the concepts behind desktop, touch-screen, tablet and smart-phone interfaces (and to an extent keyboard as well), but I admit that that is contentious here... KDE 4's Plasma is another take on the same thing, albeit coming from a different direction with different priorities.

I think offering choice, reconfigurability and generalized modularity (often better thought-out than its influences) is a matter for the visible GUI as well as philosophy. What you see when you first install a FOSS desktop is its default interface, not it's only interface, and yes, it often makes a lot of sense for the default to resemble something which people have already seen elsewhere and are familiar with (just look at GNOME 3 for an example of how people respond otherwise!).

With a few settings, a few applets/widgets/extensions/themes, maybe a bit of programming, the interfaces can be changed quite radically, at least within the confines of WIMP.

Quote:
It's a shame that Apple bought them out (and that GNUstep hasn't received as much attention from developers as other GUI toolkits).
It's still in the shadows, but GNUstep is getting some modernizing attention again these days, so hope isn't lost there. Objective C support and Étoilé are both coming along nicely, although very overtly following OS X rather than leading their own way.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
clone, gnome3, mac, windows 8

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yum repo - Chicken and Egg basillica Using Fedora 13 16th December 2009 09:58 AM
A chicken and egg problem : NFS and Wifi georgesgiralt Servers & Networking 0 7th November 2007 09:21 AM
The mighty T. Rex dinosaur a... Chicken? Firewing1 Wibble 30 26th April 2007 01:36 PM


Current GMT-time: 18:31 (Wednesday, 20-08-2014)

TopSubscribe to XML RSS for all Threads in all ForumsFedoraForumDotOrg Archive
logo

All trademarks, and forum posts in this site are property of their respective owner(s).
FedoraForum.org is privately owned and is not directly sponsored by the Fedora Project or Red Hat, Inc.

Privacy Policy | Term of Use | Posting Guidelines | Archive | Contact Us | Founding Members

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

FedoraForum is Powered by RedHat