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  #31  
Old 14th December 2011, 11:33 AM
JonBL Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

I'm just not convinced this is a hardware problem. In response to Jean Pierre's post, my box was not purchased from Acer, Dell, HP, or any other retailer of hardware + software. I specified to my supplier that I wanted a custom-built box that included stock-standard processor, memory, motherboard and disks. Now, why does F14 work with that, but F15 does not?

This is not a hardware problem.

Regards,
Jon
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  #32  
Old 14th December 2011, 01:39 PM
stoat Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBL

I'm just not convinced this is a hardware problem.
Well, maybe. But something has to be singling out only a relatively small number of people. If it was Fedora 15 alone, then I would have thought droves of people would have come in here with it. And it would have been fixed on day one.

Now we have that thread at archlinux.org with Arch users talking about this and and getting nowhere with it other than a person here or there fixing it with some thing or other that doesn't help the others. That Arch thread also started last summer and goes all over the place from Wake-On-LAN to ACPI to initscripts. Anyway, I use Arch Linux. In fact, it's sitting in the partition formerly occupied by my rebooting-shutdown-Fedora-15. I have zero issues with Arch Linux in the very same partition where Fedora 15 misbehaved.
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  #33  
Old 15th December 2011, 11:01 PM
David Batson Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

There is something interesting posted today at the arch forums. Apparently there is a kernel regression that affects some laptops. A workaround is also posted.

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic....28777#p1028777
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  #34  
Old 17th December 2011, 09:38 AM
bruno.taglienti Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Batson View Post
There is something interesting posted today at the arch forums. Apparently there is a kernel regression that affects some laptops. A workaround is also posted.

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic....28777#p1028777
The suggested workaround for arch linux seems to work for my 2 desktops
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  #35  
Old 19th December 2011, 12:58 PM
Teflon Tiger Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoat View Post
Sounds like a good potential explanation to me. Wouldn't disabling Wake-On-LAN in BIOS be sort of a test of the idea? Can somebody experiencing this problem with Fedora 15 or 16 try it?
I can confirm that wake on LAN is disabled in the BIOS settings.

Clearly there is some hardware dependency here, however, I'm not about to start modifying the electronics in order to work around an issue that occurred when the software changed. I have not changed this hardware since Redhat 7.0, this problem is only manifest in F15. I have F9 installed on a swappable harddrive - it still behaves properly at shut down.

As mentioned further up the thread, the system "does something" at shutdown. Usually it takes a mater of seconds, however, sometimes it can take several minutes. The system log gives no indication as to what it is doing, or trying to do at shutdown.
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  #36  
Old 31st December 2011, 03:21 AM
JonBL Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

Just putting in my final comment on this matter.

When I originally posted this topic, I mentioned that I purchased stock-standard hardware to replace my ageing Fedora servers. Installation of F15 proceeded smoothly but then I noticed the shut down auto reboot issue. Other people have reported this same issue, but it appears not all F15 users have this problem. I noted that after replacing F15 with F14 on my new box, the problem went away.

I've been running Fedora on a variety of boxes over the years since F7. I had never experienced this auto-reboot issue prior to F15. The fact that not all F15 users have experienced this issue adds to the puzzle, but the fact that more than one user has experienced this issue suggests there might be a real issue to be resolved.

Since installing F14 to replace F15 resolved the issue, there is the possibility that the issue is caused by new software introduced with F15. Not everyone is affected, but many are. Under the circumstances, is it unreasonable to conclude that code introduced with F15 might be implicated? And that this possibility should at least be investigated by the F15 developers?

Regards,
Jon
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  #37  
Old 31st December 2011, 07:24 AM
Jean Pierre Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

I have applied the patch posted by David two weeks ago, and my desktop does not reboot any more. In the bios there is no option for wake-on-lan but there are two options for restarting at a predefined time. Both options are disabled and have always been, but the patch seems to be related to restarting at a later time, so some kernels must act on this feature when the hardware supports it.
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  #38  
Old 19th January 2012, 01:20 PM
Teflon Tiger Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Pierre View Post
I have applied the patch posted by David two weeks ago, and my desktop does not reboot any more.
Ditto. Since applying the "patch" my system has shutdown successfully at each request. However, when power is restored there is a 50/50 chance that it will turn-on immediately - I suspect I can/will have to live with that.
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  #39  
Old 22nd January 2012, 05:09 PM
stoat Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

I thought I should return here to add that after five months without any Fedora system at all, I decided to give Fedora 15 one... more... chance. I unpacked it from the tarball made back in August and installed upstart (again). But this time I put some effort into tweaking the [ FAILED ]s in the init stuff. It turned out to be easy to do. And it stopped Fedora 15 from rebooting when I choose for it to shutdown. And since it boots just as fast, and since I didn't ask for or want systemd in the first place, and since I use (and like) sysvinit in Linux From Scratch, I like this upstart way of dealing with this issue better than that wakealarm thing in rc.local (which I never tried anyway). I don't expect this to be a popular thing to do. Just FYI. But for me, I will just put Systemd in my little box of stuff that I don't use along with LVM and Gnome 3.
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  #40  
Old 22nd January 2012, 06:29 PM
Teflon Tiger Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoat View Post
...And since it boots just as fast, and since I didn't ask for or want systemd in the first place, .
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoat View Post
... I like this upstart way of dealing with this issue better than that wakealarm thing in rc.local (which I never tried anyway). I don't expect this to be a popular thing to do. Just FYI.
It would be very popular with me! Care to share more details, or perhaps just pointers to a reasonable explanation would be appreciated - please? So far, the only documentation I have found is on Poettering's blog in which he states that users will either be his mum, or clued-up sysV admins. Since I am not his mum it looks like I will have to reluctantly become the latter. Call me a Luddite but I fail to grasp how a reliable system can be built on hardware that is initialised in a non-deterministic manner. These shutdown issues are not the only problem that has been bundled with systemd; often, the cpus fail to update their microcode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoat View Post
... I like this upstart way of dealing with this issue better than that wakealarm thing in rc.local (which I never tried anyway). I don't expect this to be a popular thing to do. Just FYI. But for me, I will just put Systemd in my little box of stuff that I don't use along with LVM and Gnome 3.
I don't like the wakealarm thing either. But I don't dislike it as much as the bouncing shutdown! If there is a practical way to consign systemd to my little box, along with pulseaudio, I would like to try it - bearing in mind that I am not (yet) clued up on the finer workings of sysV, nor upstart.
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  #41  
Old 22nd January 2012, 08:54 PM
stoat Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

I first got the steps from here months ago...
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/piper...ly/401654.html
I didn't at that time have the patience for the failed init scripts that occurred after that first try. So I moved on to other things eventually leaving Fedora completely behind. It turns out months later on my second try, I did the step to create /var/run/dbus while Fedora 15 was not running (from another system). A good clean error-free upstart boot happened after that. For me, that is all I had to do differently from the steps in the link.

Some warnings and caveats...

One is the preceding message by Frank Murphy in the link I posted above. He warned that as time goes by, some services and daemons may fail to start as the maintainers of various services migrate totally to systemd and stop maintaining init scripts.

Another one is right after I saw that upstart was going to work, I did a yum update. It was huge since five months had passed. Immediately after that update, my Ethernet connection went down. It didn't take long to discover that the NetworkManager init script in /etc/rc.d/init.d had vanished. I don't yet know why that happened, but among the updated packages were NetworkManager, initscripts, and initscripts-legacy. One or more of those surely was behind that. Anyway, I copied the NetworkManager init script right back in there from the tarball. The runlevel symlinks to it still were there and everything was fine again.

So be warned that evil forces are working against this idea. I still like it though. And I intend to resist for as long as possible and reasonably practical. I have excluded upstart, initscripts*, and systemd* from future yum updates. I have all kinds of backups where I can go for init scripts like I did for the NetworkManager incident. And I'm not incapable of tweaking (even writing) init scripts. I have gotten considerable experience with that very thing from building two Linux From Scratch systems. And if upstart itself perishes in Fedora, it still can be compiled from source. The upstart web site not only has the source tarball, but also has nicely written documentation about installing upstart and how it works. Very nice. Maybe it can be said that I am crazy. But I am happy now, too.

Some other comments...

P.S.: I noticed that the smartd init script was missing from my upstart-started-Fedora-15. In the past, that init script had been created by the smartmontools package when it was installed. To be sure, I re-installed smartmontools. No change. The binary executable still is in the usual location (/usr/sbin/smartd), so I copied the smartd init script back into Fedora 15 from a Fedora 14 backup tarball and manually created the appropriate symlinks to it in rc{0,1,2,3,4,5,6}.d. Rebooted. Smartd started. No problems. I have three other MIA init scripts to investigate and fix (crond, udev-post, restorecond). So considering these missing init scripts and the NetworkManager init script that vanished after an update today, I guess it has been confirmed that init scripts really are disappearing as predicted by Frank Murphy in the messages of the link above. For me, none of this stuff has been a deal breaker so far. But other people (and maybe me, eventually) may find it a tiresome maintenance chore to monitor the condition of /etc/rc.d/init.d for disappearing scripts caused by package updates.

P.P.S.: I now have all of the missing init scripts and run level symlinks restored in Fedora 15. It wasn't so hard to do and everything is working perfectly without systemd running. I expect future updates to packages that provide daemons and services possibly to delete init scripts and symlinks as though they are cleaning up behind their migration flight to systemd. I have concocted a plan to counter that with minimal effort by maintaining a sort of shadow rc.d folder from which I will sync up the real rc.d folder after system updates. It works in my head, and I am looking forward to the challenge. Viva la resistance!

P.P.S.: Okay. Everything still is working fine. Systemd itself is not running. But chkconfig still refers things to systemctl which then fiddles with those target things and their symlinks. I don't exactly know what to make of that. But it seems clear that systemd runs deep in Fedora. I knew that I could not uninstall it. The dependencies involved would haul out half of the system's packages. But I had hoped not to use any part of it in any way. I don't think that is possible.

P.P.S.: To be honest and complete here, I have to report that I spent some time yesterday playing with chkconfig and the services and daemons I was turning all of them either off or on and then back. I forget why I wanted to do that. Anyway, after that, the next shutdown rebooted. Yes, I'm pissed, but I will spend some more time looking at this. When I get tired of it, I will move on again. I used to like Fedora. At the moment, my Linux From Scratch system is better than Fedora. One thing is certain, I am not going to buy a new mainboard (what else can it be?) just to run Fedora. You know, there already are bug reports going about this. For a while now. And one that I saw had a only single comment from Lennart Poettering. It's going nowhere as of the last time I looked at.

P.P.S.: I realize that nobody is reading this anymore. But this has to be written down somewhere. I just noticed that my upstart halt init script ends up executing either /sbin/halt or /sbin/reboot both of which happen to be symlinks to /bin/systemctl which is a systemd component. There is another halt/reboot executable/symlink pair in /lib/upstart (and some others including a shutdown executable). I wonder what will happen if I "fix" the upstart init script to execute one of those instead? I can't be any worse. I will do it, see what what happens, watch the shutdowns for a while, and record the results here.
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  #42  
Old 24th January 2012, 05:38 PM
Teflon Tiger Offline
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linuxfirefox
Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

Thanks for all the hints and ideas - I'm still reading!

Somewhere in my trawling of the web I think I remember reading (can't find it now!) that the actual shutdown program had been re-written for the F15/systemd release. [edit - i.e. reverting to the old version might cure this problem. IIRC the old version doesn't comply with systemd specifications - hence the rewrite. ]

I would not be happy with replacing hardware to circumvent what is clearly a software issue (hardware works with all older versions of the software - does not work with the new software - this is not a hardware fault). Obviously a section of hardware is not being initialised correctly, or may be just not being initialised at all. I don't expect fedora to be perfect, I expect there will always be a few rough edges, however, for me, systemd has pushed it into the realms of "flaky".

Last edited by Teflon Tiger; 24th January 2012 at 05:45 PM.
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  #43  
Old 24th January 2012, 06:03 PM
stoat Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Post #41

I just noticed that my upstart halt init script ends up executing either /sbin/halt or /sbin/reboot both of which happen to be symlinks to /bin/systemctl which is a systemd component.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Post #41

There is another halt/reboot executable/symlink pair in /lib/upstart (and some others including a shutdown executable).
I just now changed these symlinks in /sbin...
Code:
ll /sbin | grep systemctl
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     16 Jan 21 03:10 halt -> ../bin/systemctl
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     16 Jan 21 03:10 poweroff -> ../bin/systemctl
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     16 Jan 21 03:10 reboot -> ../bin/systemctl
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     16 Jan 21 03:10 runlevel -> ../bin/systemctl
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     16 Jan 21 03:10 shutdown -> ../bin/systemctl
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     16 Jan 21 03:10 telinit -> ../bin/systemctl
To these...
Code:
ll /sbin | grep upstart
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     19 Jan 24 12:49 halt -> ../lib/upstart/halt
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     23 Jan 24 12:50 poweroff -> ../lib/upstart/poweroff
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     21 Jan 24 12:50 reboot -> ../lib/upstart/reboot
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     23 Jan 24 12:51 runlevel -> ../lib/upstart/runlevel
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     23 Jan 24 12:51 shutdown -> ../lib/upstart/shutdown
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     22 Jan 24 12:51 telinit -> ../lib/upstart/telinit
So now, these are the init-related symlinks in /sbin...
Code:
ll /sbin | grep upstart
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     19 Jan 24 12:49 halt -> ../lib/upstart/halt
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     22 Jan 21 02:25 initctl -> ../lib/upstart/initctl
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     23 Jan 24 12:50 poweroff -> ../lib/upstart/poweroff
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     21 Jan 24 12:50 reboot -> ../lib/upstart/reboot
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     21 Jan 21 02:25 reload -> ../lib/upstart/reload
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     22 Jan 21 02:25 restart -> ../lib/upstart/restart
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     23 Jan 24 12:51 runlevel -> ../lib/upstart/runlevel
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     23 Jan 24 12:51 shutdown -> ../lib/upstart/shutdown
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     20 Jan 21 02:25 start -> ../lib/upstart/start
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     21 Jan 21 02:25 status -> ../lib/upstart/status
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     19 Jan 21 02:25 stop -> ../lib/upstart/stop
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     22 Jan 24 12:51 telinit -> ../lib/upstart/telinit
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root     19 Jan 21 02:25 upstart -> ../lib/upstart/init
And they work, too. Now to see what happens over the next few days. My enthusiasm for and confidence in this project has been at least temporarily restored.

P.S.: So I think I have everything fixed now. I have the full collection of init scripts in /etc/rc.d/init.d. The runlevel symlinks are right. The chkconfig utility is working normally. The symlinks in /sbin now are referring to the executables in /lib/upstart instead of /bin/systemctl. To deal with reversions caused by updates to packages that have stopped supporting Upstart and SysV, I have written a script for monitoring /etc/rc.d for deletions or changes to the init scripts or runlevel symlinks and the symlinks to init-related executables in /sbin. To repair things when changes do occur (and they will because I already have seen it happen), I made folders for backups of all of those init scripts and symlinks. The script will repair any changes from the backups. So I have monitoring and repair down to a few mouse clicks that I will do after yum updates. I also have excluded upstart, systemd*, and initscripts* from yum updates. It all sounds like a lot, but it really isn't. And once done, maintenance via the script should be easy. Anyway, I want this enough to do all this stuff. If it works well in the longer run, I may try it with Fedora 16 which still has upstart in its repo.

P.P.S.: I just noticed that SELinux is not working. It's set to enforcing, but it is in a disabled state. And I cannot get a relabeling to happen by any of the usual methods. All of the relabel stuff is now in systemd folders. I decided to disable SELinux in /etc/selinux/config for now. I understand the security advantages of SELinux, but the fact is that I do not have SELinux in Arch Linux or my Linux From Scratch systems. So this is not really a big deal to me, and I will work on it later. I think if I can get a relabel to happen, SELinux may work again.

P.P.S.: Final update (I think) and a summary... The rebooting shutdown thing is over. Everything is satisfactory and normal. Except SELinux. I worked some more on SELinux, and I never figured out how to enable it. I did all of the usual things. All of the required packages are installed. The kernel has SELINUX enabled. All of the usual files say enforcing (/selinux/enforce, /etc/selinux/config, etc.). The files /sbin/fixfiles and /sbin/restorecon exist. And so on. But the SELinux Manager says "Enforcing" and "Disabled" and I can't change that. It will not autorelabel. Anyway, to summarize the whole process...

How to Use Upstart in Fedora 15
  1. yum install upstart
  2. rm /etc/mtab (a link)
  3. touch /etc/mtab (a real file)
  4. mkdir /var/run/dbus (I did this with the system not running)
  5. echo "id:5:initdefault:" >> /etc/inittab (verify that went in okay)
  6. Edit the kernel GRUB menu command line to add init=/sbin/upstart
  7. Create new symlinks in /sbin to the executables in /lib/upstart related to starting and stopping. Delete or force an overwrite of the existing symlinks to /bin/systemctl. These are the ones I had to recreate...
    ln -svf /lib/upstart/halt /sbin
    ln -svf /lib/upstart/poweroff /sbin
    ln -svf /lib/upstart/reboot /sbin
    ln -svf /lib/upstart/runlevel /sbin
    ln -svf /lib/upstart/shutdown /sbin
    ln -svf /lib/upstart/telinit /sbin


    Some others may already be linked to executables in /lib/upstart. This is what I ended up with for symlinks to /lib/upstart stuff...

    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 19 Jan 24 12:49 halt -> ../lib/upstart/halt
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 Jan 21 02:25 initctl -> ../lib/upstart/initctl
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 23 Jan 24 12:50 poweroff -> ../lib/upstart/poweroff
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Jan 24 12:50 reboot -> ../lib/upstart/reboot
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Jan 21 02:25 reload -> ../lib/upstart/reload
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 Jan 21 02:25 restart -> ../lib/upstart/restart
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 23 Jan 24 12:51 runlevel -> ../lib/upstart/runlevel
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 23 Jan 24 12:51 shutdown -> ../lib/upstart/shutdown
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Jan 21 02:25 start -> ../lib/upstart/start
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 Jan 21 02:25 status -> ../lib/upstart/status
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 19 Jan 21 02:25 stop -> ../lib/upstart/stop
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 Jan 24 12:51 telinit -> ../lib/upstart/telinit
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 19 Jan 21 02:25 upstart -> ../lib/upstart/init
  8. Review the init scripts in /etc/rc.d/init.d and expect several to be missing as package maintainers have begun deleting their init scripts when they switch over to systemd units for their services and daemons. I had to retrieve from backups the init scripts for crond, smartd, and NetworkManager. That situation should worsen but still is manageable by going to previous systems or backups for init scripts. Once you have them (or the ones you need), set or reset them with chkconfig as you want them. That will create the runlevel symlinks in the various runlevel subfolders in /etc/rc.d. The system now should have what it needs to boot with upstart.
  9. Protect your work. The init scripts and any symlinks created by you or chkconfig are vulnerable to deletion by future package updates. I made a backup of the entire /etc/rc.d folder and can restore deleted init scripts and symlinks from there. I created a script that sort of automates detecting and repairing changes of any kind in /etc/rc.d and to the symlinks in /sbin.
  10. Finally, if anyone else does this and figures out how to enable SELinux and do a relabel, then I would like to know how it's done.
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  #44  
Old 1st February 2012, 05:00 AM
pileofrogs Offline
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Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

I also have this problem. In most systems there is a setting in the bios for what to do after power comes back on after a power failure. Usually the options are 1) stay off 2)start up 3) previous state. Previous state means if the machine was off when the power failed, leave it off, if it was on, turn it back on. Anyway, for previous state to work, the OS has to somehow tell the bios when it shuts down on purpose as opposed to a power failure and the biios has to remember that. If the OS botched that, the bios might think a shutdown was a power failure and restart the system.

So, I guess my question is, for those of you who have had this problem, what is your bios setting for how to behave after a power failure?

Thanks!
-Pileofrogs
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  #45  
Old 1st February 2012, 11:45 PM
stoat Offline
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linuxfirefox
Re: F15 Shutdown Auto Restarts

Quote:
Originally Posted by pileofrogs

So, I guess my question is, for those of you who have had this problem, what is your bios setting for how to behave after a power failure?
I had already given some thought to that BIOS stuff, but the fact is that Fedora 15 is the first and only operating system to behave this way on this same machine and BIOS settings (I haven't even downloaded Fedora 16 yet). I sort of wanted to find out what is it about Fedora 15 that is doing this instead of compensating for it via hardware or hardware-related settings. Anyway, here are the BIOS settings that you mentioned and which have caused nothing unusual to happen until I installed Fedora 15 last May.

Code:
After Power Failure            Stay Off
Wake on LAN from S5	       Stay Off
ACPI Suspend State             S3 State
S3 State Indicator	       Blink
S1 State Indicator             Blink
Processor Power Management     Enable
Wake System from S5	       Disable
Wake on PS/2 Keyboard from S5  Stay Off
BTW, I thought the reboots were behind me after converting Fedora 15 to Upstart. Not so, apparently. After several days of smooth sailing, I had a rebooting shutdown again last night. I rechecked everything I had done. Upstart was the running init process, and I was still booting and halting with the old init scripts and with the /sbin symlinks to the executables in /lib/upstart. I still am overlooking something that is different in Fedora 15 from all previous versions (and any other Linux I am using or ever used). Maybe comparing the kernel configs of 14 & 15 is something to try next. I could diff those two files, but there probably will be enough differences to make that a tedious job.

Anyway, I have no regrets over the Upstart project though because I kinda enjoyed doing it and sorting out that stuff. Besides, I happen to prefer the old init method. Nothing about it ever bothered me.

P.S.: Just for the record, and as many people have already mentioned, and in case it helps somebody think of something else for me to investigate, these rebooting shutdowns are different from a simple reboot. Sometimes (not every time) when I select "Shutdown" in the logout dialog, the computer appears to be shutting down. And soon it can be heard to power off completely. Then, a few seconds later, just when I am about to get up and leave, it comes back on. I reboot often between multiple systems everyday, and normal reboots don't do that.
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