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  #1  
Old 3rd June 2006, 06:10 AM
BigHope Offline
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The begining of the end??

G' day everyone, I am new so be easy on me and criticize me not too hard.

I am a mere MCSE with no experience in Linux at all. Never find the right books idiot proof (like myself) that really teaches step by step how to build and install programs into Linux ( tar.gz, build and compile, where the hell things should go and why and how to fix it if it doesn’t work).
Regardless of all of that I have tried many times different distros and always thought Suse was the way to go.
I have spent hours trying to make Suse work with video files and never got it going.

This month I returned from overseas and all of a sudden found the Fedora Core 5 DVD in the Linux magazine. Last night I put it on a Pentium III 600Mhz Intel processor with 524Megabyte of DRAM. Very quickly I learnt the add./remove programs which I thought it was great, moreover going to www.freshrpms.net in France added the catalogue via Firefox. All of a sudden the VLC media player that I tried to run in Suse after hours of putting the service dependencies and never worked ( the bloody program would not even launch) was installed in Fedora and I started running MPEG 1, MPEG 2 all the pseudo MPEG4 (AVI, DIVX, XVID) and EVEN MPEG 4 AVC ITU 10 !!!!!!!!.
I could never understand Suse stupid position about legal matters with DVD or videos.
We all know that Slysoft sells ANY DVD for windows and no one has ever gone to jail.
Novell is the most stupid and lost company I think and destroying what the Germans started.

I congratulate Red Hat and Fedora in this move. I spent many years in the Digital TV broadcasting and telecommunication industries. There is no way that if the desktop is not made easy and complete Bill Gates will continue being the cancer of the operating system/s.
Now with windows advantage they are getting lots of angry people and this is the time to attack.

I also see (and since I know nothing about Linux) that there are too many Linux distros and it seems different. Congruency and consistency is the lack off to me.
Our Windows world at least is one and only one BUT installing programs is so but so easy. You cannot capture the generic desktop market if everyone has to be a software engineer to install Java in Firefox. Actually I am trying to install Flash in Fedora Core 5 and tells me has been successfully installed but every time I use Firefox tells me to do it again and does not work.

I will continue exploring Fedora and keep my Big Hopes that Linux will have the easy way into every home with easy way of installing new programs and people does not have to pay hundred of dollars per machine for software that goes out with problems and bugs.

WELL DONE FEDORA CORE 5 !!!!!!!!!!!
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  #2  
Old 3rd June 2006, 07:23 AM
ryle Offline
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Hello BigHope, I'm a linux-noob as well

I agree with you that linux still has a bit to go before it will be "as easy as" windows to install. I first tried redhat 5.0 when that came out, and that was too difficult for me. Was that 8-10 years ago? I cant remember. But after i've tried Fedora 4 and 5 I can see that it has come a very long way towards being noob-friendly. You have to do a bit more reading on websites than with windows. But once Fedora is installed and configured it is actually as easy to use as windows. I wanted to install it on my parents machine, but their printer wasn't supported so it was not to be. Printer-support is one of the areas where there could be more progress, but that is up to the printer-manufacturers. Brother f.ex. is a good brand to go with.
But once you learn to use yum, i think it goes like a breeze to install programs. You just have to learn the commands first though. It is sometimes also a bit unclear whether it is necessary to reboot or not after installing new software.

Yes it is silly to pay so much money for software when you can get something more powerful and versatile for free.
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  #3  
Old 3rd June 2006, 07:29 AM
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BigHope,
Check out here: http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_cor...ion_notes.html


check out the yum configuration there and once you set that up installing flash is a breeze. Also check out the many FAQs that are floating around. Take the time to read, and read again. that's the one tip I'd give to you.
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  #4  
Old 3rd June 2006, 09:53 AM
BigHope Offline
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Ryle, Scotta3234,

Thanks guys !.

I will follow those links and read and read. Yes, it is a powerful system but I need to come to terms how is structured and works.
I know the theory of compiler and linkers for microprocessors and chips but have never done much hands on with it.

Ryle, I agree that being free is good too and be able to contribute to the comuni\ty and end decades of blackmailing from you know who.
I may look how to run sendmail and put my mail server on Linux rather than the monster of WIN 2003 Enterprise Server and Exchange.

Cheers
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  #5  
Old 5th June 2006, 08:45 PM
Malkosha Offline
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In many ways. Windows isn't very easy for people who are not certified or have spent a long while with it. Its always assumed that Windows is THE easy sytem but you have to remember that people, including yourself, have been plugging away at it for a long time. They look and Linux and go "arggggh" and give up, claiming how difficult it is. They expect that just because they know Windows that Linux should be just the same.

They are different systems and to be as good in Linux as ytou are in Windows, you really need to put the time in it ... just like you did in Windows. Learn a little as you go along, and it will all come together for you ... just like Windows did.

Spend that much time with Linux, and you will just as comfortable there as you are in Windows, excdept now you power and control.
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  #6  
Old 6th June 2006, 06:36 AM
BigHope Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkosha
In many ways. Windows isn't very easy for people who are not certified or have spent a long while with it. Its always assumed that Windows is THE easy sytem but you have to remember that people, including yourself, have been plugging away at it for a long time. They look and Linux and go "arggggh" and give up, claiming how difficult it is. They expect that just because they know Windows that Linux should be just the same.

They are different systems and to be as good in Linux as ytou are in Windows, you really need to put the time in it ... just like you did in Windows. Learn a little as you go along, and it will all come together for you ... just like Windows did.

Spend that much time with Linux, and you will just as comfortable there as you are in Windows, excdept now you power and control.

Sorry, that is not correct . A TOTAL idiot can run and exe. and install ANY programm/s under Windows. THERE IS ONE AND ONLY ONE OPERATING SYSTEM.
There are too many distributions in Linux. That is why there are SPECIFIC RPM's for different distros and within that not all work. I downloaded Skype rpm for Feroda 3 and put is into Fedora 5. Said no problems..............and the bloody thing does not work.
In Windows you do not have to know anything to execute and install program. It is almost seldom and install would not install or work.
There are many other things, yes, if you want to set up a Windows 2003 Server with DNS,etc,etc then you need to know the OSI model whch I do and I can do it WITH FULL GUI and consistenly.
Even with my knowledge setting up with no GUI a split brain DNS or a mail server and their corresponding mailboxes under Linux is a long way even if you know it.
CONSISTENT GUI's THAT ALWAYS work does not exist in Linux they way in the Microsoft world.
This is wherre Bill has been ultra clever and this is FACTUAL.

Cheers
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  #7  
Old 6th June 2006, 08:20 AM
ccrvic Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHope
Sorry, that is not correct . A TOTAL idiot can run and exe. and install ANY programm/s under Windows.
Well, I certainly get a lot of phone calls from people that can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHope
There are too many distributions in Linux.
That's a philosophical argument; a large number of people think that choice is *good*. But having choice means making choices.

A hegemony might make it easier to find components that fit, but as with any consumer goods, I'd prefer the choice in what I use. See Alex Cox's Repo Man for a view of life with ever-more limited choice...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHope
That is why there are SPECIFIC RPM's for different distros and within that not all work. I downloaded Skype rpm for Feroda 3 and put is into Fedora 5. Said no problems..............and the bloody thing does not work.
Wel,, just like if you bought a spare part for your car that didn't fit, you've been sold something that doesn't perform as advertised. Your legal system is close enough to ours that you'll have something like our Sale Of Goods Act - that entitles you to a full refund on whatever you paid for that software. I recommend you get your money back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHope
In Windows you do not have to know anything to execute and install program. It is almost seldom and install would not install or work.
Disagree. I see lots of broken machines. Now on many of those, that's because an installer was *too* easy to use (SpySherriff *again*...), but plenty are there because the legitimate software that was installed on them doesn't work. So often, this is because the installer makes assumptions about its environment that later prove to be just plain wrong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHope
There are many other things, yes, if you want to set up a Windows 2003 Server with DNS,etc,etc then you need to know the OSI model whch I do and I can do it WITH FULL GUI and consistenly.
You can do that with Linux if you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHope
Even with my knowledge setting up with no GUI a split brain DNS or a mail server and their corresponding mailboxes under Linux is a long way even if you know it.
Disagree. Setting up DNS takes but a few minutes (and I never remember the OSI model - I look it up if I need to, which I don't when I'm setting up DNS). Typing in DNS records takes a little longer (I'm slightly dyslexic, so I double-check everything when TTLs are that long :-). Setting up a mailserver? Once the customer has dedided what he wants to do with it, that's another short job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHope
CONSISTENT GUI's THAT ALWAYS work does not exist in Linux
Oh, my mistake. I must have been hallucinating again. Too much acid in the 60s, I guess...

Thanks for pointing out that the tools I use don't exist, though - it's saved me much soul-searching later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHope
This is wherre Bill has been ultra clever and this is FACTUAL.
Ah. That'll be some definition of the word "FACTUAL" I've previously been unaware of.

Vic.

Last edited by ccrvic; 6th June 2006 at 12:04 PM. Reason: typo
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  #8  
Old 6th June 2006, 11:36 AM
Malkosha Offline
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ccrvic said it much better than I did.

I also get tons of calls about Windows and much of it seems to be centered around the concept that MS has latched onto that the "Home PC" is easy and simple allowing anyone to do it. WRONG!! IMO, all the crap they add to make it "simply" also are the things that disrupt the user and cause problems.

Installing software in Linux is simple for me ... I'm not an expert but have put in some time ... as is the software in Windows. Of course, I've installed software in Windows that was much harder to install than just "clicking" on an exe including custom OBDC drivers and at the same time answerd a few questions in Linux and installed software very easy <shrug> I guess it depends on what you do and ow much you know.

I'm a KDE guy and the GUI is consistent for me so I'm kind of lost there. If you are talking about choices ... well you win there because Linux does give you choices and we all know that choices are evil
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  #9  
Old 6th June 2006, 01:28 PM
3006828
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both sides make points.. and maybe windoes is seen easier simply because of it histroy with the public..

and although things like yum are really really helping, along with .rpm's, honestly tho it is more difficult then any winblows system.

The Skype instance is the perfect example of how brain dead you have to be to get anything wrong in windows.

as for window consistancy, things do need need to be improved.

I.e. in windows i can tell the mouse applet. ( sorry in the contorl panel) you can set le mouse to drag any window once its been clicked on...

how a handy thing i surly miss in *nix.

I know im being extremly nit picky here.. but i think it was these kinds of little things that Big Hope was refering to.
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  #10  
Old 6th June 2006, 01:44 PM
ccrvic Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3006828
honestly tho it is more difficult then any winblows system.
Absolutely disagree.

*You* might find it easier because you're more used to Windows; that doesn't mean it is easier - just that you prefer familiarity.

Personally, one of the first things I do when getting stuff to work on Windows systems is to boot Knoppix or DSL - because I'm (now) more familiar with Linux than I am with Windows, so I find Linux much easier.

Neither of us can claim our preference as proven-easier - all we can claim is better familiarity, and that's entirely subjective.

Vic.
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Old 6th June 2006, 02:01 PM
3006828
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yes but it is because of that farmiliarity which results in it being easier..

we arnt talking within our enlightant Linux world.. we be talking about the rest of the depressed human race whom havent seen anything other then the windows logo. :P
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  #12  
Old 6th June 2006, 02:13 PM
ccrvic Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3006828
yes but it is because of that farmiliarity which results in it being easier..
Only because you are doing things with which you are already familiar.

Let's take you out of that warm, comfy zone. You mentioned Skype - how would you get 3 Skype clients running on Windows behind a NAT firewall? How would you prevent that Skype traffic from saturating your net connection (thereby trashing all your other net use)?

This is easy stuff in Linux - tell me again how Windows is easier...

Vic.
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  #13  
Old 6th June 2006, 02:38 PM
3006828
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ok you got me.. id much rather be ona *nix system to sort out those issues aswell.

BigHope was talking about installing programs, like a basic java client and other odities that have provided to be a source of frustration for some *nix users.

And he's right, some things are a pain in the arse. and as far as migrating the rest of teh winblows populas on to a *nix framework those sorts of things would need addressing..

Maybe tho its a good idea to keep the idiots on that side of the fence anyways :P
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  #14  
Old 6th June 2006, 03:04 PM
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Hmmm... I will take a bit of new learning to install apps via yum/yumex/apt-get/synaptic/whatever over the kludge that is Microsoft's solution. Want to update every app in Windows? Good luck! You need to do each individually (except Windows and Office, though their WGA-"enhanced" Microsoft Update).

A bit of effort and learning is required for *nix, but in the end, I believe it to be a much easier to maintain, stable system.
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Old 6th June 2006, 03:29 PM
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It seems this argument on familiarity and how easy something is comes up every couple of days out here. There are two camps, those who are more familiar with Linux (and typically have a hatred for Windows) and they always think that "nix" is easier and more flexible. Then there is the camp that has been exclusively using Windows for years, decides to try Linux out, finds out how different it is and realizes they have a lot to learn and feel that Windows is easier.

In my case, I am quite familiar with both systems. I support both at work and use both at home. I am certified in both platforms. For many things, I find both systems to be easy. There are some things that are easier generally in Windows (setting up wireless comes to mind), and there are some things that are easier in Linux (starting and stopping services and setting up firewall rules in iptables).

Like many average users, I started in the Windows world. When I made the switch to Linux, I must admit I found it VERY difficult to do anything. But personally I enjoyed that challenge. Things were very hard to troubleshoot (because I didn't know the basics). I couldn't rule out anything, because anything could have been the problem. For quite some time, I believed that Windows was indeed easier, but I felt that learing Linux was worth the effort.

So, my experience is a good case in point. Your familiarity with a particular system will likely make your experiences with that system easier. (or at feel easier or appear to be more straight forward for you....likely because you know where to turn when things don't work out right the first time).

I accept the fact that more people are familiar with Windows than they are linux. This also leads me to assume that given this familiarity, for many people they are just going to find Linux to be less straightforward to use....because they aren't used to it.

I've also been a Linux user for years and I accept and acknowledge that Linux doesn't always work flawlessly or perfectly when settings things up. I'm honest and I admit this. I recognize the tradeoff is freedom and control over your own system. This means I still love Linux, but I won't necessarily recommend that a friend switch to it over Windows. In addition, at work, I evaluate whether the Windows based solution or the Linux based solution makes more sense for our needs and I go with the product that fits the bill (and not necessarily dismiss Windows because it's from Microsoft). I think both products have their place in the market and in my particular server room.


As far as the two many distro comment, I see your point and always have. Although, freedom is the name of the game with Linux and that isn't going away any time soon. For us Linux users, we understand what this means. For newbie converts from Windows......I'm sure it's very confusing and difficult to understand. For me personally, I have stuck with the RH based distros and use fedora/RHEL/Centos....I don't even bother playing with the ubuntu's, the mandrivas, the SusE's, the Debians, etc. Too many small things change in these other distros and increase my troubleshooting time......so why bother? For me, the RH distros work great and I'm happy and they meet my needs.
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